Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Mar 31, 2022, 3:47 PM
The Vietnamese play a gomoku variant called Caro, which from the little bit I've played it seems like it would actually be most interesting without first player restrictions. In order to win at Caro, you have to form either a 5 which isn't blocked at either end or an overline (whether blocked or not). I don't know what board size is small enough to prevent the first player from being able to make a win (as with tic tac toe). So, along with some variant of captures and board size, I think Caro Pente could be a very jnteresting game. I don't know which board size or rule variant would be the most fun, just putting the idea out there for programmers with access to some deep learning computation time to see what looks interesting.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Posts:
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Registered:
Dec 5, 2021
From:
Knoxville, TN
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Mar 31, 2022, 9:56 PM
If I'm interpreting it correctly, the Caro goal is functionally identical to 6-in-a-row.
I mostly play Connect6 and Keryo. I'm very interested in merging them, taking Connect6 and adding pente-capture for 3's and 4's and a capture goal of 21. Not sure if it would actually be interesting or not, and not sure if it would actually need to be a 7-in-a-row goal or not.
Message was edited by: metzgerism at Mar 31, 2022, 9:57 PM
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 1, 2022, 7:15 AM
I'm not a big fan of either keryo or connect6 (for different reasons), but it'd be interesting to see a successful merger of C6 with captures. I think you're correct regarding the Caro goal as being equivalent to six in a row. The only counter example I can think of which isn't equivalent to a 6 would be a diagonal 5 blocked only by the board edges. Possible, but vanishingly rare, I suspect.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 3, 2022, 7:14 AM
Wow - another in-a-row game never heard of! Thank you for enlightening us watsu. Do they play this game in organized form in Vietnam? Any association, IRL tournaments?
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 3, 2022, 7:54 AM
I've so far found little in English about this variant, Mikael. It's on boardgamearena as a variant option for gomoku, but only with swap2 rules is it rated. Unfortunately, with a balanced position and two skilled gomoku players it doesn't seem like a win can be achieved, so it likely has to have a first player advantage in order to be a first player win. That's pretty much all I know about the game, and the first player advantage needed to win is more speculation than knowledge.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Posts:
17
Registered:
Dec 5, 2021
From:
Knoxville, TN
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 22, 2022, 5:12 PM
> @metzgerism > > Would capture destabilize the balancing effect of the > 12* movement protocol in Connect6?
Strongly doubt it - I think capture might actually help: my theory is that Connect6 is not actually balanced when considering results. I wouldn't be surprised if p1 win-rate landed in the 55-60% range.
12* handles material advantage, but not opportunity advantage, and black is always first to get to odd-numbered material:
3 stones can make a strong preliminary threat. 5 stones can make a winning threat. 7 stones can make a victory formation.
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 25, 2022, 4:58 AM
So creating a line of three or four would simply be a suicide move in Keryo6 as you see it or? Similar to Yavalath (I think?) where you win if you get four in a row but lose if you get three? Similar in that avoiding vulnerable positions is vital rather than simply important.
Or would you limit or change the capture somehow to account for the ability to capture a vulnerable group in one turn?
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 25, 2022, 5:14 AM
@metzgerism
Also I didn't realize someone had addressed ondiks contention about connect6 being unbalanced in that thread. I posted about it on BGA but no one really bit.
I think using his claim the number was like a 64% FPA which is much much better than gomoku with the pro rule and a good bit better than pente, but still a bit "oof" by itself.
However I assume its low enough an FPA that it could dealt with pretty easily with some variation of swap or perhaps even a pro rule.
Renju rules could also be used, but while I don't hate Renju rules I really would rather avoid them since they're the epitome of inelegant and brutish but very functional balancing rules.
Renju with the forbidden moves plus the Soorsov-8 or Taraguchi-10 opening protocol have an FPA of ~54-55%. And Renju's high level play is very high. Probably much higher than Pente and Connect6 and very likely gomoku as well.
Re: Caro (instead of or in addition to) keryo Pente
Posted:
Apr 25, 2022, 7:35 AM
@T0afer - I need to stay swap2 Pente focused through May 24th, but after that we can give it a try. Before then, I can tell you the player I tried it out with, if you'd like.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
