Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Jul 13, 2008, 6:18 AM
Short answer- sometimes VERY, sometimes not at all.
Right now I'm two moves away from winning on a very exciting (best I've played or seen in years) poof Pente game which I'll post with a more complete analysis (and variant lines) once it finishes. Lepews made two crucial poof blocks which together combined to prevent what would have been a win in regular Pente. Thinking I had a quick win at that point, I made the error of not seeing that the second poof would block both of my winning threats at once. Had I seen that second poof block, I would have gone for a slightly longer win which would have been a win in regular or poof Pente either one. Anearly fatal error on my part I really wracked my brain looking for any possible way I could still salvage a win from a now grim position.
My initial analysis of the board at that point was that Lepews could use 2 more poof blocks to prevent me from any winning line and that the best I could hope for (barring a mistake on his part) was a 10-12 overtime loss. However, a few moves after that prediction on my part I saw directly what I couldn't visualize ahead of time- that he can't make a capture at the end due to me having 8 of his pieces and that capture would poof his stones as well giving me 10! Of course the winning line in that case for me wouldn't work in regular.
At another point in the game, I made a choice to block directly instead of with a poof block- had I chosen the other way, the game would have been lost quickly.
On the other hand, some poof lines play out exactly the same as a regular Pente game would. I'll look through the database for some more good illustrative games on how the poofs can alter games.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
(keep in mind that the database doesn't always accurately show how the moves play out on the actual poof Pente board)
many games they don't really enter into at all or else don't affect the outcome of the game. most of my P1 poof wins against mike321 fall into that "unchanged" category, for instance.
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Re: Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Jul 13, 2008, 7:50 AM
I agree, once in a while poof games can get wild. I'm looking forward to the game you are mentioning above and some analysis of it.
Of the links you gave here, I like the second one -- I'm assuming it ended with some time trouble at the end or just not realizing the cap count, but white could have actually made things pretty nasty with 18. J8! This would give black lots of chances to make a fatal error and it's pretty tough to find a black win from there. In fact, I challenge anyone to find a black win that takes less than 5 moves! (If you can find one at all!)
Re: Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Jul 13, 2008, 8:21 AM
Good eye, good eye... that was actually a replay of a position which you didn't quite make it to in a game against samwise. None of us saw J8 as a counter the last time we went through that game, even w/o time issues. Though I think you'll agree, the position was definitely a lost cause for P2 w/o 16. _ O5 as an option, which you didn't see in the original...
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Jul 13, 2008, 9:17 AM
Well, I wouldn't call J8 a counter so much as an annoyance really. Black has successfully stolen the initiative here with good use of poof tactics and does have enough to eventually force a win, but it's still quite tricky after J8! Tricky enough for many players to make a fatal error...
1. K10 M11 2. N10 M9 3. M8 P9 4. L9 N7 5. M10 L10 6. K8 J7 7. O12 O10 8. M10 N11 9. M12 Note: M13 blocks the three as well, but unless there is a good strategic reason to block with a poof I think it is a weaker way to block a threat- two pieces can be attacked instead of one.
I think we were both online at the same time for a few turns at or around this point, so the moves were made and replied to a bit more quickly than in other parts of the game- 2 mins vs. 2 days
16. J8 N8 17. H8 L7!! This move was crucial to the play which followed and set up a mean threat to boot. I held up on making my move 18 in order to scrutinize my best play. Turns out I didn't necessarily find it, though! I think the quickest and easiest win (but less interesting) would have been as shown in alternate branch #1 below.
18. H9?!? Wins it quickly in regular; it works out in poof, but only just barely...
18. _ H10 19. G11 H10!! blocks both winning threats simultaneously and threatens a win by captures if P1 isn't careful. I spent a long time looking for a way out of a grim looking board at this point, as I mentioned above. The best possibility I could see at this point is listed below as branch #2- given best play by P2. It looked like my best shot at winning, and would require two more crucial poof blocks by Lepews in order to lose in overtime by pairs as a worst case scenario...
20. N11 L13 21. N11 O12 22. O11 - After resigning myself to a likely loss in an awesome game, I finally spotted my winning play for the next move at this point. Can you see it without looking ahead?
22. _ O12? (O13 is preferable here; see alt. branch 2)
23. M11! P2 can capture the pair @ M12, but only at the cost of the game- it's a poof! Note that this line won't work w/o the prior capture of the stone at J9. So, I just went on an instructional and scenic detour for a Poof Pente only win instead of taking the direct Pente win route. That's my story at least, and I'm sticking to it... 23. _ H7 24. P11
alternate branch #1:
18. H10 H9 19. H14 H13 20. J13 K12 21. L13 and win on the next move @ K12 or J11
alternate branch #2 (at this point I could see no way to safely threaten a capture of the 5th pair which couldn't be protected against)
22. _ O13!! poof blocks the 4 and prevents 23. P11 from being a winner. At this point, I considered the following to be my best chance- 23. P11 M11 24. N12 H7!!! The hope crusher! At which point I would have sent the game into a 10-10 overtime situation with K9. P2 has 3 pairs to choose between for the victory.
Had that line played out, I would have considered it a good candidate for the greatest poof Pente game in recorded history. I vaguely recall a decades old OTB poof game in which I sacrificed 3 pieces to capture 4, but no records of it exist, unfortunately. I don't even recall who won, just that it was a wild position which sent me off to the library looking for a book on "Pente" strategy. As it turns out, the game we were playing wasn't actually Pente at all, and I was pretty much on my own figuring out how the captures work on a "poof sacrifice".
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Jul 28, 2008, 12:56 PM
Well, life is tending towards calling me away from this site once again, so I figured I may as well share as much as I can in terms of poof Pente strategy before I disappear back into semi retired mode... maybe some of the Pente masters will keep the ball rolling here, at least to some degree.
1.) roughly 50% of the time poofs will rescue a player from the dreaded play into a force and then get captured scenario. What to look for here is this xooo_o x o
CAN'T be rescued by poofs but in the case of x o xooo_o x
a poof block instead of playing at _ works out just fine for the defender. In other words, if you are sandwiched between two lines- not good; if your threatened piece is above or below two lines you can use a poof to block and avoid a capture (as a general rule).
2.) Pente lines have to be reevaluated on a case by case basis when playing poof. Some lines which work fairly well for P2 in Pente get fouled up by poofs; as P2 your mission will be to find lines which foul up (or at least complicate analysis for)P1. You can seek P1 lines which benefit P1, of course, but in most cases it is P2 looking for the edge, not P1. On the other hand, if you find yourself on defensive look out for xo_x potentials.
3.) Don't prefer a poof block to a regular block unless it confers a clear advantage in position, initiative, etc. because IMO a poof block is weaker than a regular block; two defending stones can be threatened by capture instead of just one, also the blockee can either unpoof by playing into it (on rare occasions it's a good move) or force you to unpoof by requiring you to make a capture of the sandwiched stone. Don't ask me for tips on doing that last one, but I've seen it done against me, so I know it's a possibility.
4.) Look out for double blocks with a single stone scenario; these crop up more frequently than you might expect, see the game analysis in the last post for one example. The stone played will block one treat directly and block the second threat by creating a poof.
5.) Remember- you get any stones which you would be able to capture from a play into a poof, this can become a factor in endgame scenarios; thus a 10-10 score on captures is possible, but doesn't end the game. Play continues until one player has made a 5 or has a numerical advantage in captured stones.
6.) A position can be a poof in more than one direction, in which case playing into that position takes more than one stone off the board (puts more than a single pair in the opponents column). I've seen doubly poofed positions and perhaps even triply poofed positions arise, but the theoretical maximum is a quadruply poofed position, which would cost a player 5 stones (including the one played) if it were played into.
7.) Mark Mammel's winPente download ( http://mysite.verizon.net/msmammek/marksfiv.html )has (or at least it used a few years back) the potential to play a very mean game of poof, especially if you let it play as P1 with a good opening position and with VCT on. It worked some of those "you must take this stone to unpoof your poof block" scenarios I mentioned above on me. However, it does consider a 10-10 position to be a drawn game.
8.) I've played against several players here who I consider to have a good fundamental grasp of the strategy differences between Pente and Poof (in some cases I think probably as good or better than my own). I'd say up2ng, gaylen, lepews and zoeyk fall into that category and I think carson75 will be a quick study on the poof nuances.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: Just how different is poof Pente from regular Pente?
Posted:
Oct 26, 2008, 2:23 PM
For those who haven't tried playing through the poof puzzle which Up2ng helped me refine, it explores a few (but by no means all) of the outer limits of the potential differences between poof and regular. You can load up the position to play around with it in the database by searching among poof pente games for the dreaded A4 first move by P2. The db game ends where the puzzle begins and the puzzle should end with a win for P2 in 26 moves... Game ID 34194139714104
only one person has sent me a correct solution (and already won the offered prize, sorry) to this puzzle in the last three years. Will you send the second one? No prize except for a warm fuzzy glow for second place, sorry...
Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 28, 2008 10:33 PM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
