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Topic: Pente Challenge- How to answer a open 3 by not blocking it
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zoeyk

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Pente Challenge- How to answer a open 3 by not blocking it
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 1:56 AM

Ide like to pose a question and challenge for any one to answer it most completely, or simply add to the list of answers to help.


first a statement. the common general rule in Pente is that you want to block a open ended 3.
now this rule of course does have exceptions.


How many ways can you ignore blocking a open ended 3 with out losing in 2 moves.

i want these scenarios to be presented in a viewable board format. text should accompany this explaining what is happening, in order to be clear that it is a new way as opposed to a pre-stated way.

in other words i want unique examples that can be counted into a total sum of ways.

to learn how to make viewable boards here click this link for the simple tutorial.

http://pente.org/gameServer/postanalysis.jsp


Good luck!

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare


karlw

Posts: 923
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 31
Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 5:08 AM

-cap through any part of the 3

-make pente or any type of live tessera OR a dead tessera that will be made live by capping through the 3 next move (2nd part dweebo's)

-go for five caps before he makes the pente

-threaten a pair on his 3 that will make a tessera or pente when the cap is made

-make it so any tessera extension he makes can be capped, opening up a blocked tessera (rare)

-soft block (make it so that he can't make an open 4 in either direction)

-set up a double-cap that will cut through two of the tessera's stones (dweebo)



Message was edited by: karlw at Jun 30, 2009 1:36 PM


Message was edited by: karlw at Jun 30, 2009 5:03 PM


It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 6:28 AM

very nice karlw
i will see if i can translate those into viewable boards.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 5:06 PM

this doesn't really answer your question, but its related.

harder to explain in words than an example. if the open 3 already has a potential cap across it, and you can create a blocked extended-4 or blocked tessera situation where capping unveils the threat. in this case you already won't lose in 2 since the cap is already there, but you can sometimes get back the initiative this way.

another way to think about it: this is the same thing as attacking a keystone pair, except in this case the pair is already there, you are just turning it from an ordinary pair into a keystore pair.





Pente Rocks!
karlw

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From: Eugene, Oregon
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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 7:42 PM

that's a beautiful example peter. i will add it to the list.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
dweebo

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 8:12 PM

Zoey, i am not sure what the point of your challenge is, but to me it seems like the question should instead be "how many ways can you ignore blocking an open ended 3 without losing - period." maybe you have a reason for the "in 2 moves" part.

but another fun one if we use my modified question is:

if the open 3 has extra stones around it in a certain way, you can allow your opponent to create a tessera if you can setup a double-cap across the tessera.

in this example, setting up the double-cap also creates a split-4 which makes it harder for white to block the double-cap.

Pente Rocks!
karlw

Posts: 923
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 31
Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jun 30, 2009, 11:06 PM

dweebo: i think the point of this exercise is to brainstorm all the possible reactions to the open 3 (the most important forcing move in the game) that aren't passively blocking one end and that don't end in open 4 to pente. the amount of things you can do that actually eliminate the open 3 threat are much smaller and less commonly found, and mainly include captures.

-karl


Message was edited by: karlw at Jun 30, 2009 5:07 PM

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 1, 2009, 3:13 AM

Find a capture chain (two or more captures) across the open three (or potential tesseras) which when the second (or later) capture is made forms a superior threat to the threatened tessera(s). In other words, the first capture after a tessera is formed from the open three doesn't create a tessera, but rather opens up the threat of a second (or possibly third) capture which forms a greater threat than the opponent will have- either through a keystone pair capture, a built tessera, double cap or other above mentioned threats. This is basically just adding a preliminary capture in front of the other ways...

Perhaps the following board is already basically covered by Karl's threaten a cap across a tessera to open a blocked tessera example, but it's such a sweet example that I can't resist adding it...
after sjustice's 15. G9, Kras can safely ignore the open three- either by extending as he does to threaten a potential keystone pair or alternately (I believe) by going directly to L7 threatening two caps if J7 is chosen.




See also

with the suggested alternate of 7. ... L11


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 18, 2010 11:08 PM

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
jackschidt

Posts: 124
Registered: Jun 8, 2008
From: Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 1, 2009, 9:48 AM

In this game player-2 overcomes two simultaneous split-3's. This has already been discribed (karl, dweebo, & watsu's "capture-chain"), but it is another example of turning the tables.

Of course, I wouldn't know player-1's thoughts; but at move 7, I was just going through the motions and blocking with hope that was sure to be dashed. However, at move 8, player-1 makes a bold move instead of building insulating branches to insure a win. I liked player-1's style, going for a quick clean kill. Never the less, from this point in the actual game, player-1 never regained the initiative.




zoeyk

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 1, 2009, 6:35 PM

wow thank you so much guys for getting involved in this!

i wanted to add that in my question to ignore blocking a open 3, a split 3 was also implied when i said a open 3. both 3s, regular or split.

and i think the split 3 ignore can bring forth a slightly new example that is similar to the others, yet a bit different.

i have a game example here from me and nosovs, and i was wondering how to describe this one in words. does this fall under a slightly different method in some way?
Look at Nosovs 11th move to answer my split 3 in a unexpected way, how do you call this?

in any event keep the ideas coming, this is great!

oh and when i said in 2 moves dweebo perhaps you right in needing to reword it, but what i originally meant was that normally when u dont block a open 3 it becomes pente in 2 moves, yeah? but the question of are we looking for ignores that win or both winning and losing ignores i find interesting. im not sure which question is better.
i suppose the winning ignores are what we should be looking for...i think..




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watsu

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 4:34 PM

My sense is that Nosov's 11th threatens a double capture at M13, thus preventing N12 from working out, so I think it's already been named.

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watsu

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 4, 2009, 2:53 AM

This was an interesting game which Karl and I recently finished


Initially, I basically ignored Karl's three which he made with 9.) M11 (10. Q7 was unnecessary in terms of neutralizing its threat). However, with Karl's move of 12. R13 (using the open 3 to threaten with a scissortailed flycatcher- threatening to make the killing move @ P11 if I wasn't careful) I was no longer able to safely ignore the threat and I felt I needed to respond with tesseras to shore up my position in regards to M11...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Jul 4, 2009, 9:24 PM

L9 was rather devastating.

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watsu

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 12:58 AM

I'd like to add another time when one may choose to ignore a tria along with a few examples-
when one sees a forthcoming win for the opponent but is able to make a move which threatens to take enough pairs so that the opponent may choose not to go for the win through pair sacrifices. A psychological move, so to speak. An example of this would be starting at my move 13. _ P11.



a second game example of this principle follows below, with the pivotal psychological moves occuring following white's 17. M6:



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zoeyk

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Re: Pente Challenge
Posted: Sep 23, 2009, 9:41 PM

very nice watsu. i rather enjoyed viewing those, thanks.
they were a little more complex looking than earlier examples, but yes i think these yield a new definition.
how ever im hesitant to simply label it as a physiological move alone.

ill ponder on that.


zoey

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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