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Topic: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Replies: 23   Views: 26,290   Pages: 2   Last Post: May 21, 2022, 1:54 AM by: karlw

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watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 4, 2022, 6:59 PM

I sometimes hear complaints from renju players that Pente isn't really a complex enough game. A lot of the time, particularly with well explored pro rules lines, I tend to agree. Every so often, one can get a glimpse into the depths of Pente, though. Below is an extension of a position nedhall 17 and I reached in a swap2 game (as projected forward by nedhall17). Try to predict the placements for the next seven moves and the outcome of the game from the position given here within 10 minutes and without moving pieces around on a board. Ready? Go!



Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat


nedhall17

Posts: 37
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 56
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 4, 2022, 9:18 PM

Another variant: black plays O5 instead of O8.

watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 4, 2022, 9:23 PM

Yes, but that's a different game

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 4, 2022, 10:45 PM

On my first inspection, it looks like P1's only hope is 14 K8 M9 (not ...K9 15 L8 which appears to be winning for P1) 15 K9 K11 16 M11, which frees up a tria for P1, but they can't complete the pente because after 16...K11 17 L11 M12 is a double cap through the tessera, so black wins. Of course, P1 can avoid all that and just passively play 14 O5, but it looks like P2 should win after that.

But really, I'm probably missing something sensational and P1 is winning.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
nedhall17

Posts: 37
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 56
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 4, 2022, 11:40 PM

Karl: what were you thinking black's move would be after 14 O5? 14 O5 N7 seems to leave white in a very good position (winning, as far as I can currently tell).


Message was edited by: nedhall17 at Apr 5, 2022, 12:44 AM


karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 5, 2022, 2:23 AM

Ned: The obvious move is 14...N7, but I'm beginning to see the tricks here: p2 is in big trouble after 15 L9! You can't cap because ...L8 16 K8 steals the initiative permanently.

So p2 can steal that idea and play 14...J7 15. J6 H12! 16. G12 H12! (Edit: Actually ...F13 first might be even better here, securing one more cap and replacing H12 if p1 extends) The threat is to capture on L9, simultaneously freeing up a tessera and making a tria with M8 and O6. p1 can either counterattack with M9 or play defensively with L9. I believe L9 loses on caps, but I haven't worked it out. The aggressive M9 leads to insane complications, but again it looks like p2 may win on caps.

At the end of all this, it looks like if p1 really has no threats and has to respond passively to p2, then 13...O5 wins much more convincingly than O8.

Final Edit: I'm pretty much ready to declare that p2 is winning after 14 O5 J6 15 J5 H12.


Message was edited by: karlw at Apr 5, 2022, 2:58 AM

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
nedhall17

Posts: 37
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 56
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 5, 2022, 5:01 AM

That's lovely!

In response to 14...N7, I'd been thinking 15 G11, F11;16 K8, M9;17 K9, K11;18 M11, K11;19 M7

watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 8, 2022, 4:19 AM

So, is 13. ... O8 what Rollie Tesh would have referred to as a blunder? Or is it just one of those minor mistakes that makes the winning line much more challenging than it needs to be? If a blunder, how high a dan ninuki renju player would it take to spot it during a real time game?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,216
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 12:41 AM

I think P1 wins. I can play as p1 from current position. Choose your champion to vs me.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 12:45 AM

Okay. On a scale of 1-10, how deep would you rate this as a Pente board position, zoeyk?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,216
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 12:55 AM

I'm not sure how to rate. Simply, its a lot of little branches to check due to capture variables. Its wide with amount of paths, but I dont see the paths as being long/deep. Just a lot of short nubs to check.. Hope that helps.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 1:12 AM

I'm just trying to tell whether swap variants might provide a bit of extra depth over pro rules due to less favorable initial conditions for player one. I don't know whether this would be an example of that or not.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,216
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 1:24 AM

Its a good line. P1 must make moves which look scary in order to win. Like leaving a split 3 unblocked with the faith that looming capture pressure alone will subdue it. Then pile on the shear volume of capture variables. It can be thick woods to see the clearing from. Just depends of the players skill level, and amount of time to analyze.
Keep in mind I did not say p1 wins 100%. I just said I think p1 wins. I didnt brute force all branches by hand yet. I just gave it a good once over in about 20 minutes on a digital board, and came to a feeling of outcome.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,216
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 3:03 AM

To clarify, im referring playing from current position. If you are talking from move 4 let's say, yeah no one is going to foresee all of these moves. Also, there would be no certainty that you would arrive at the current position. There were other lines it could had gone down.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,400
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Deep Pente waters; what happens next?
Posted: Apr 10, 2022, 3:12 AM

Yes, I agree there are many ways the game could have gone differently. I was just thinking in terms of the current position as shown and whether it might be a bit tougher to analyze (especially in real time) than a lot of pro rules positions. As P1 in TB I likely would have played at least one move differently and most likely would have picked O5 over O8 (both TB and real time) if we had gotten to this move in the game. But as a positional problem which could actually have come up during a game, I thought it was pretty tough to see which side might have an advantage here. I definitely would lose as P1 here against a master in real time.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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