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painter62

Posts: 39
Registered: Dec 30, 2008
using database during turnbased games
Posted: Oct 20, 2010, 4:51 AM

Is it acceptable to use the database to determine the best move in a turnbased game?
If the database is being used by one opponent, should the other opponent be told....or are we to just assume that it's being used?
If that's the case, who's actually playing the game - the two people involved or the database?



theskald

Posts: 29
Registered: Aug 13, 2009
From: Texas
Age: 53
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Dec 19, 2012, 8:05 PM

Just saw this. I have wondered about database use myself. It is not something I do, since I prefer to use my own resources to win a game. I have, once or twice, reviewed an earlier game that I've played with an opponent if the position is the same and can't remember what I did. Usually, I'll go from memory in the hope that if I repeat a mistake I'll remember the next time.

There may be some who can use the database effectively. Zoey might be able to give some pointers. When I have looked at it, it is somewhat difficult to determine what a viable move is in a position because the moves of novices are included with moves of masters.

brf

Posts: 172
Registered: Jan 23, 2002
From: Forest Grove, Oregon
Age: 47
Home page
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Dec 21, 2012, 9:14 AM

well it's a useful tool in hammering home opening sequences for sure, but it's never going to be a map to beat a determined opponent who is using just their brain against you.

I've always figured that in turn based that's the point, you have X amount of time to move and you can use any and all resources available to you. Being able to just take your time to make an informed and well thought out decision.
Hopefully from study, developing better consistency in your moves and learning stronger responses from weaker ones. Essentially offering a better and tougher turn-based game against your opponent.

When I play an opponent I assume they are using the database (if you aren't you're already making a big mistake IMO) and as far as I care...good for them. In the end we'll both get a challenging game and making me work harder helps me improve too.

That database works both ways also, many times I've found traps where the dbase points to 12 people moving to some coordinate and 100% of the time this equals a definite win. Sure...unless I then move into a new unknown response I've identified that seriously rules. 12 people who won didn't get that variant so the database is now done for that player. So the database can be used against someone just as easily as it can be used against you.


I also think that a player dependent on the database to win games for them will quickly find out it's limitations during midgame tactics against a thinking player.

I'm sure other people might disagree on all that but that's just my two cents


as far as live play which is simulating the true Over the Board experience, I 100% agree that no database access or outside aids should be used...that's not cool. The whole point with that style of play is to play out of your head in a quick get it over in 10-20min (I like 5min speed myself ). And it's a completely different style of playing focusing on quick thinking, timeliness, and responsiveness.
I tend to think it's more like the rules in the tube and a just playing with your buddies in a more informal style as well.

I could just see how my next OTB session of 'Te with my friends would go if I said "hold on a sec before I move, I have to look that up at DSG."

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Dec 22, 2012, 7:10 PM

I agree with brf on the idea that people generally use all resources during turn based games. In the little bit of turn-based play that I was doing at a high level against very strong opponents, database usage was probably just the first step. What I personally found very useful was to get a copy of the mm_ai computer opponent that is used here on this site and run it on my personal computer at a high level -- around level 9 or 10 -- and I would try out different moves in the mid game to see if the computer opponent would know if I was moving into a sure loss. You can set up a position and have the computer play against itself. If you think the computer is making a mistake, you can pick a different move for the computer and then run it from that point, and so on. I would often see players come here to DSG and set up a private table with a seperate strong opponent so they could run through a turn based game that they have in progress and would try out different moves against this third party individual, and so on.

You'll be surprised at how good your turn-based moves will become if you put this level of effort into them.

marcachain

Posts: 1
Registered: May 3, 2010
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Age: 47
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Dec 22, 2012, 11:26 PM

Below is the rated game policy section dealing with database use. It seems to suggest using the database is not permitted during rated games whether the game is live or turn-based.

Rated Game Policy
Pente.org maintains a rating for you when you play "rated" games (either live or turn-based). The ratings system is important to help you determine your skill level and to help you find worthy opponents. Pente.org attempts to ensure that ratings accurately reflect a players skill, and therefore certain guidelines must be followed by all players!
1.Play rated games using only your brain. Do no play with any outside assistance. Just to be clear, here are some examples of what you should NOT do: use another pente board to examine future positions, use a game database to lookup the current or future positions, use a computer opponent to find moves, consult written notes or books.

brf

Posts: 172
Registered: Jan 23, 2002
From: Forest Grove, Oregon
Age: 47
Home page
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Dec 23, 2012, 1:08 AM

arguably those archaic rules were posted when the site only had the "live play" game option. Though I see a shoehorned in (Live or Turnbased) comment it's not very realistic. All of the best players I've ever played at Brainking and here clearly do not follow this suggestion and nor would I want them too. Also, I wouldn't say Peter has had a whole lot of time to go back and revise the rules in situations like this. A turn-based game variant clearly is not the same (rated or not) as a live play game. Study is accepted and in most if not all of the better players, preferred!

Also while playing live play the dbase I believe is blocked from your IP address and you can't access it. This however is NOT the case when playing turn-based games. So obviously a decision was made there allowing access to the database during turn-based play.

I can see Painters argument about "am I playing a person or the database" but really the dbase is just a blunt tool. It's your skill level that will determine how effective it's use is against you. once your rating is high enough the dbase is pretty much negated as an ineffective strategy to rely upon.

trying to blacklist people from using it won't work either...too many ways to still do the same thing. The reason it was created in the first place was to aid in skill development. Pretty straightforward "search on over 250,000 games by position" and when might someone want to do that?

dmp89145

Posts: 2
Registered: Feb 21, 2014
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Feb 27, 2014, 5:31 PM

I apologize in advance for posting on what seems to be a dead subject, but I must admit that I am a bit surprised at the lack of debate on this topic. Granted I am new to this site, but I anticipate on participating and engaging all types of gameplay.

I would think that using any type of support material during rated game play would be a dishonorable thing to do. I mean, would a player be allowed to do the same during live gameplay or during a tournament? To me a database should only be used for review outside of an actual game or during a non rated game against another player or the computer to enhance skill level.

I didn't see an official admin response to this topic and if it's already been addressed I, again, do apologize.

cfisch

Posts: 35
Registered: Mar 2, 2009
From: Central Texas
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 6, 2014, 7:43 AM

Everyone has their own sentiments. And their own individual perceptions of 'fair play'.

To be sure, Honor is a peculiar thing.

Honorability (is that a word?) is also a unique synthesis of conclusions [or perhaps a chosen interpretation] of one's own individual experiences in living.

my take?... don't worry about it! ~ do what you do.. allow others to be who they are..and endeavor to embrace them for doing what they will.

simple as that! (don't worry..be happy)

..but above all... Don't forget to Laugh!!




zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
Home page
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 8, 2014, 2:34 AM

i agree with all things that were stated by Brf as shown above.

The common practice of most players, and certainly 99% of masters, is to use all resources in turn based when ever it is determined by a player to be helpful (usually is). IMO the pente.org rules on such should be edited, for reasons already stated by Brf.

There is no way to know if your opponent is using the data base, and to drive my point home here on that, even if you block the data base, you can still have the data base on your hard drive, with all BK games added in for that matter.

So, even in live play the data base is accessible. Although, it is common knowledge that using a data base, AI, or other such tools in rated live play is a big "no no".
Very bad form in rated live play.

If you are worried about the opponent using the Data base, then play your game with new moves not shown in the data base. be a tactical trail blazer.

And, yes this topic has been talked about alot over the years. thats fine. thanks for asking. im certain as long as the sites rule are not edited this topic will continue the rear its head from time to time.

~Z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 214
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 12, 2014, 3:14 PM

hi every1! i rarely weigh in here...
just wanna say that i agree w/ brf and zoeyk.
the db is a great learning tool
and fair game in tb
but what i like most is what z said about being a trailblazer
i play many tb games and i never use the db
i dont wanna do what my opponent expects
i wanna see something new
the perfect win has yetto be discovered
only in our collective creativity will that be discovered and that will never happen if we all keep doing the same thing
so for me.. i will eschew the db in tb games
having said that...
i encourage everyone i play in tb to use the db
cuz... if i win.. then i not only won against you...
i won against the best on the db
thats a rush!
(tho i usually lose...
anyway
have fun!

live or die on the table
dmp89145

Posts: 2
Registered: Feb 21, 2014
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 13, 2014, 3:14 AM

I appreciate everyone's point of view, but if this is the accepted style of play here, then I must move on. I am interested in improving my gameplay against genuine human intellectual capital.

Database gameplay to me is just AI and there is the computer for that. I will respectfully close out my open turn based games and close my account here. It's just not my type of thing.

zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
Home page
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 13, 2014, 4:32 AM

well, players from all the other sites still come here to use this data base. so unless you mean to not use the internet at all to play,.. or well i guess play at that shells in the sand site,.. then leaving here wont change the problem any for you. just my opinion, but do what you gotta do i guess. sorry to see ya go.

and i seem to think you misunderstand how the data base works,.. any good player 2 will always deviate into a novelty move at some point which means new moves,.. unless player 1 just plays horribly to begin with.

Furthermore, short of shutting down the data base and seizing all computer hard drives that have the data base down loaded on them,.. even if we all agreed your way was the right way, there is simply no way to enforce such an opinion... So it doesn't really matter what the opinions are of the few members who chimed in here. the consensus doesn't change the reality no matter which way it voted for you. it just is what it is.

Not to mention many masters have the main parts of the data base memorized. so even if it was shut down,.. the good stuff is already in our heads. we don't stare at patterns and statistics for 5 to 10 years and not remember some stuff.

my apologizes if my message seems short tempered,.. not my intention, but I feel IMO that your in denial of a certain reality with regards to this topic. well i mean unless you plan to just play OTB in real life.

I could go on, but I feel you will still feel the way you do, so we'll just have to agree to disagree perhaps. i dunno.

~z


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Mar 13, 2014 4:49 AM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
Home page
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 13, 2014, 5:11 AM

actually, here is the best i can do for you i think. if you want i can put together a short list of players who i can tell don't use the data base. perhaps that might work for you.


or,.. maybe we need to have the data base with a sepperate registration to access it. and once you register your name will be branded with a symbol that signifies you as a data base user. Im not sure what people would think of that. I have a feeling some people might get upset lol. any ways.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
cfisch

Posts: 35
Registered: Mar 2, 2009
From: Central Texas
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 14, 2014, 6:24 AM

Excuse me dmpxxx (could you have come up with a more difficult name for me to screw with?)... But I have a bit more to say beyond what I previously offered.

Now what I'm about to say may, at first glance, come across as somewhat confronting to you. Just understand that I offer my comments with the intention to assist, not demean in any way.

First;
Your apparently idealistic disposition is, in my opinion, inhibiting you from achieving the very 'intellectual capital' you are (presumably) seeking for yourself. I believe you may be taking the game of pente (as well as the rating system) much too seriously. Furthermore, if you do as you've said you intend to do, then you will certainly cut yourself off from those you claim to be seeking out (that is, from those whom you believe to already possess such capital).

Second;
We all must make assumptions at virtually every turn in our daily lives. And assumptions are by their very nature just anticipated truths underlying our perceptions. Said another way, they are our projected expectations of reality. I'm sure you must realize that our assumptions are often found to be misguided, and thus they frequently lead us to faulty conclusions.

Now having said all of the above garbeldygook.. I will have to strongly challenge what I perceive to be your rather unflattering assumptions concerning others here at pente.org. I further challenge what I suspect are your assumptions concerning the actual impact of consulting the database during the course of a game. And I also have to question whether you fully grasp what the database represents to us all (yourself included).

If you think that everyone here uses the database to plot out their every move during game play, then you are quite mistaken. If you feel that there is some sort of inherent dishonesty in consulting the database (at all) during play...then I will contend this is an errant judgmental overlay you have chosen to cast upon others ~ all the while being blinded to the virtuous utility the database offers as a tool for improving one's skills (yours included).

Finally,
Some very sage advice and enlightened comments regarding database usage for helping to improve one's pente skills (even during game play) has already been proffered by a few of the more seasoned and experienced veterans in response to your somewhat impetuous objections. I would urge you to go back and carefully re-read what has been offered from acknowledged masters such as Zoeyk, Brf, and up2ng. Take a little time and poke around here on the forum. Consider what these very skilled players have contributed in previous conversation threads. Trust me, these folks know a thing or two about pente. They know a thing or two about what the database represents as a learning tool. And they certainly understand (far better than either you or I) what the hazards are in relying upon it during game play.

The very best pente players here didn't become masters overnight, they had to work at. And I assure you that they utilized whatever tools they could find to become as good as they are (the database being just one of them). So just as Invictus has intimated, it doesn't matter which side of the table you sit...the database is a valuable tool that can (and should) be used to help everyone develop those very skills which (I assume) you wish to garner yourself.

If you choose to leave because you believe others here at pente.org are playing the game with impropriety, then that is your prerogative. No one is stopping you. But please don't pout about it.. because it's a bit unbecoming.

If you choose to hang around (which I definitely recommend).. then I am confident you will eventually see how silly it sounds to declare the efforts being made by players here to improve their game as 'not your thing'. You can also watch to see how mean everyone is to me when I desperately try to keep them from slaughtering me without mercy.

Personally, I would be happy to play pente with you again. I'm sure many others would be equally happy to as well. And if you wish, I will also promise to not use the database during our games. Hmmm.. that reminds me... there's still one more game in our set.... it's your move silly goose!

Oh yeah.. one last thing ~ don't forget to Laugh!!



haggis

Posts: 45
Registered: May 3, 2007
From: GA
Re: using database during turnbased games
Posted: Mar 26, 2014, 1:49 PM

He could have played me. I've never even looked at the database.

It's funny how assumptions can make people do silly things.

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