Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 25, 2010, 12:36 AM
First of all Jack, stop making things up. Saying that I have an obvious bias against richard is proposterous. I think that richard is a great guy and an excellent player and we have played some great games against each other and have had many nice discussions about the game and about topics outside of the game. I have no problem with him at all.
In fact, it speaks well of his character that he was able to read the snippet of the chat objectively, recognize that he made a mistake and committed a rules infraction and has since not complained about the incident at all. Richard is highly respected and I hope that he will continue to play here at DSG.
Next, you say that I refused to play against you unless the game was rated. That is a flat out lie. I said no such thing and did not even say anything that could reasonably be interpreted that way at all. In fact, we have likely played many unrated games against each other already. I have already disputed your claims with clear and indisputable facts, then you just go fabricating more stories. Grow up.
Now as for the incident itself. Again, an extremely minor action was taken to ban two players for 5 minutes each. I have no idea why you are so bent out of shape over it. As you have said, the table owner could have taken the same action for that table -- I happen to have one more option which does basically the same thing for the whole game lobby. Now why in the world would Dweebo provide such buttons for administrators? In order to enforce rules when appropriate that's why. You can object to that if you want, but that's how it is. If the site was much higher volume and there were a couple of dozen administrators so that one or more of them were online most of the time, then rule enforcement would be more consistent. But for now, if I happen to be online I will take appropriate actions if I think they are necessary. A vast majority of the time I will simply do nothing, first, because most players follow the rules anyway, and second, because strict enforcement is not as much fun. But that doesn't mean actions will never be taken. Again, it was a 5 minute ban! It's a bathroom break. What do YOU think would have been more appropriate?
Lastly, what would I have to say if I simply did nothing and then later on Zoey comes to the forums and rants and raves that he was personally attacked and disrespected and humiliated by another player in a public game room? What if he was typing smiley faces in response just to save face, knowing that I, the administrator, had just read what occurred and chose to do nothing? Then everyone would chime in and jump up and down about that. So, clearly pleasing everyone is just not going to happen so I'm not going to bother to try. I will continue to take actions that I feel are appropriate and hopefully everyone will simply behave themselves.
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Re: Forum policies, community director....a dumbassed idea.
Posted:
Feb 25, 2010, 7:42 AM
Ahem - If i may intrude here for a sec.
1 - the 72 hour wait to post rule should had been followed for this new twist in the thread.
2 - this should had been handled through private channels.
3 - i am not at all happy that my table conversation with another person was publicly posted here with out my consent.
4 - im not sure what my position is with the up2ng vs the people case is.
5 - dweebo i think the posts should be removed starting from jack's post initiating the complaint moving down. not because im taking up2ng's side, but because i believe this issue hit the forum prematurely, other steps need to be taken first (see 1 and 2 for examples). oh, and because my table convo needs to be removed, i don't consent to that being there.
6 - any opinions i might have in this matter will only be sent via private messages, private tables, email, ext..
7 - im sorry all this has taken place, cool down guys...
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 25, 2010, 10:02 PM
Making things up? Its all there in black and white. You are in denial. I had hoped that by posting the text, it would be clear even to you, how reactionary and biased you were. But alas, I guess you really do see yourself as our lord, or something. LMBO!!!
Why is this such a big deal? Well of course sitting in the seat of a tyrant, it wouldnt be. Maybe you should have someone read it to you after you've had a good night's sleep. Or maybe Dweebo could install a "Boot Administrator" button in all the tables; that might get it through your head; when you've be arbitrarily booted with no warning or explanation from somewhere you thought was enjoyable, or was talking about something personal.
Richard himself said he wasnt coming back, after your emotional knee-jerk booting. Maybe that could clue you into why its such a big deal. As I read his responses to this matter, he is not acknowledging your dictatorship, he is mocking you! (I am really restraining myself here). I spend a lot of my time trying to help new players; showing them moves, the database, etc.; in an effort to grow the game. But now, I have to deal with few Pente-Nazis who are kicking people out and driving them off!!! Got a clue yet???
I'm not saying using the f-word is accepable, but if you lack the understanding and maturity to talk to someone directly and tell them to refrain from using the f-word, BEFORE you use the boot-button; then you are the one who lacks understanding and maturity. Nor is it mature to punish one player, while letting others get away with far worse, when it serves your own agenda. Mirror up to that. Yeah, growing up would be a good thing.
And yes, I think it was on the evening of 2010.01.24, you did tell me that you were not interested in playing me unrated. Even going so far as to say that you might never play another unrated game again. Look it up and post it here, we'll see who lies. There were plenty of witnesses to that too. I dont care why you feel that way, thats your choice. But you did say it. Never the less, I am here for the fun. Not your status, or anyone else's status. And fun would be the last thing that comes to mind when you are around.
(Zoey, I did consider the 72 hour rule here. But up2ng's abuse and hypocrisy was so over the top it had to be exposed. Further, expanding his dictatorship to live tables meant that he could easily hide his actions (as he talked about, just a few posts ago), because the text would not be available, not like in this forum.)
Deleting these last several posts now would be cowardly. But that goes hand in hand with booting someone from a table with no warning or explanation. This discourse is a perfect example of someone thinking they are objective, when they are not. Even blind to the events when they are face to face with the facts. Which is why I posted this example of administrative abuse here.
Re: Forum policies, communist director, not dicktater ...
Posted:
Feb 25, 2010, 11:54 PM
Table ownership doesn't constitute any privilige to rights or royalties lol......thats just silly lmfbo, Did Rich really say he was quitting the site cuz of the BS around here? Me quitting is one thing. Rich quitting is a goddamn shame and just sux. I have a good friend here who I stay in touch with in the real world and had a minor 'tiff' if you will over my statement that until his de-facto retirement a year or so ago that he and nosovs were the top 2 players of the game during his reign. Globally. In the world. The Galaxy for that matter. I have great respect and admiration for both of those guys for not only the borderline pornographic witchcraft and voodoo they bring to the game, but for their character as human beings. Self-aware and yet not full of themselves. You da man R3...Peace to you and yours*
*unless of course you're feelin' froggy and wanna hear the sounds of random things exploding.....perhaps not so peaceful, but nonetheless essential from time to time, eh?
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Forum policies, community director....a dumbassed idea.
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 2:41 AM
> Ahem - If i may intrude here for a sec. > > 2 - this should had been handled through private > channels. > I agree. If someone had a problem with something I've said or done they should feel free to send me a PM and discuss the matter privately instead of jumping immediately over to the public forums and making a federal case out of it. In the future, please try to handle personal complaints privately. A personal, private complaint really is not relavent to a public forum. It's just inappropriate.
> 3 - i am not at all happy that my table conversation > with another person was publicly posted here with out > my consent. > First, I'm not really sure that your consent is necessary. This was not just your conversation either, there were several individuals present and involved in the conversation.
In addition, this conversation was taking place in a public table. And even if it were not, chat room data is often stored by a website and to think that you have some rights over it is a little naive.
Now before people get all upset about privacy issues and how I somehow trolled through historical data in some admin database to pull up this chat -- think again. I happened to still be IN this table myself when I was responding in this forum and I simply cut-and-pasted the text out of my own chat window. This is something any player could have done, it requires no special admin privilages to cut-and-paste.
However, I would discourage players from doing this in general and I do not wish to start a trend of posting chatroom contents in the forums. It may not be an appropriate use of the forums.
I will defer to Dweebo's judgement on this one and I have no problem with the actual chat content being taken down from my post. I only put it up because it so clearly prooves how ridiculous jack's claims were and how obviously correct my actions were during the incident in question.
> 5 - dweebo i think the posts should be removed > starting from jack's post initiating the complaint > moving down. > not because im taking up2ng's side, but because i > believe this issue hit the forum prematurely, other > steps need to be taken first (see 1 and 2 for > examples). oh, and because my table convo needs to be > removed, i don't consent to that being there.
Again, I don't believe your consent is relavent. I disagree that all of the posts should be removed. There is certainly nothing wrong with Jack expressing his opinion and raising a concern to the rest of the community.
I'm not clear myself on what the policy should be in general of posting chatroom content in the forums. I can see how this could be easily abused by certain players. I hope Dweebo will offer his opinion on that here.
Jack, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've offered concrete evidence of what actually occurred, what actions were taken and why those actions were appropriate. In spite of this, you still seem to have a problem and believe that I acted wrongly. I disagree, and since neither of us will change our minds about it there's really no reason to discuss it further.
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Forum policies, community director....a dumbassed idea.
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 3:22 AM
> > C)up2ng is [content deleted] which if not for the > protective cover in the anonymity of the internet, > would carry a reasonable expectation of a serious > ***-kicking as a consequence in the mind of any > person possessing a modicum of common sense in the > real world. [content deleted] > First of all, you should be careful about going around talking about ***-kickings. You might eventually run into someone you should not be messing with.
Reminds me of the common scenario where some juiced up muscle head with an attitude problem gets himself worked up into some road rage, runs a mild mannered citizen off the road, grabs his baseball bat and has intentions of kicking his ***. The mild mannered citizen calmly pulls out his shotgun and blows the MF away.
Secondly, if you are serious about actually wanting to cause physical harm to someone about something that you perceived has happened to you over the internet, then you belong either in a mental institution or preferably in jail.
> D)Unacceptable? First off noone ever even mentioned > moderating the everyday goings on of participants at > a game table as being your jurisdiction Einstein.
On the contrary, these options have been available to administrators for years.
Now, please tell me that you were joking around and don't actually want to cause me physical harm because I gave someone else a FIVE MINUTE ban from an internet site.
If you are that angry with me, please tell me what I can do to make it better. Feel free to PM me with that if you wish. I have no desire to have someone be so angry with me that they want to kick my ***. Let's try to just settle what ever problem you have with me and move on.
Posts:
2,241
Registered:
Mar 4, 2007
From:
San Francisco
Age:
45 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 3:55 AM
all of u should take a 72 hour time out and cool down, u too dean. stop pushing delete and ban buttons for a little bit, not saying your right or wrong in your button pushing, but take a break. lets all reflect on this and ponder the other guy's side, then come back after a good breather, and if needed, continue....
both of you have a valid side from my point of view. and your all out of line too.. i won't go into the details of why, but spend some time thinking about the other person's points that actually harbor "some" logic.
sometimes even if your right,..when you explain it in a certain tone, you become somewhat wrong too.
yeah?
thank you all.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 9:06 PM
Zoey,
You're right, I handled this wrongly. I brought this out in the open for everyone to judge for themselves. Maybe I should I have just said to myself, 'Glad he's not attacking me.'
Not a single thing I have said has registered in his brain. When confronted with the proof of his own abuse and hypocrisy, he launches personal attacks; like calling people a liar or saying that people are making things up. I can see that bringing this up for everyone to see is a blatant affront to his ego. Which couldn't make any sense to him; because despite witnesses and proof in black and white, he knows he is always right in his own mind. I plead ignorance; I just didn't know how truly sensitive he is.
His only regret is that he didn't handle all this in secret (which would have played into his default tactic of calling everyone else a liar). But at least that admission betrays a hint of shame; that he wishes all this was hidden.
He and I are surely butting heads here, but at least I see his point of view. I am here to have fun, he thinks he is here to rule. I think the people that come here are the most important asset, he thinks being a subjective dictator is the most important asset.
So, what's your opinion about how this should be handled? (not that he would think your consent is relavent)
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 9:51 PM
Dweebo deleted it.....thats terrible. Nothing was vulgar or attacking....and people need to know how dangerous he is. The people that were on the forum watch list have it in their email tho. Why do you insist on shielding someone so malicious dweebo? just because it reflects poorly on your decision to deputize him? You're only human man, everyone knows that.
Posts:
1,032
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
Powell, OH
Age:
37 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:07 PM
i'll admit to not having read EVERYTHING that has been posted in the last few days. but i feel i need to at least comment as some people are expecting me to say something and i don't have a lot of time at the moment.
to me this just further proves the need to have clear rules for what the community wants to allow for forum posting and also behavior in the game rooms themselves.
if we can agree profanity is fine, then no problem. if we don't want profanity, fine. whatever.
lets just agree on some rules and then when someone gets booted from a table for whatever reason, we can all point to the rules and say "yep, they broke the rules so they got booted or their posts were edited". that's why the rules need to be simple and unambiguous.
i trust up2ng (otherwise he wouldn't be an admin) and believe that he acts in good faith and tries to do his best with limited power and limited guidance on what an admin should do on this site. maybe he did the wrong thing here, i don't know, but it certainly doesn't seem like some grand abuse of power to boot someone for 5min.
i think it is a bad idea to post conversations from the game room in the forums unless everyone has agreed to it; there is an implied privacy to what is said in a game table.
having said that, i suggest following the rule to not say anything on the internet (email,facebook,chat rooms,etc.) that you wouldn't want your mother to read. works for me
-dweebo p.s. i deleted some stuff, perhaps too much since it might have removed some replies following the bad content, sorry about that, please feel free to repost
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:47 PM
Your sight, your rules. I do appreciate you letting us voice our opinions.
As far as booting for 5 min (or however long), that is as subjectively offensive as using the f-word. Profanity, sex-talk, threatening, etc, are never acceptable. Someone talking like that needs no warning, boot them. However, in this case, one of the best players was frustrated, and it was an extreme reaction to that frustration to be booted from that table, at that time. The administrator who did it was clearly not even listening to the man, he was only following the letter of the law. The same law that several of us saw him ignore when he was running his own tournament.
To some, being booted or booting another person is not that big of deal. To others it is. Just like seeing the f-word; some of us dont freak out about it. Especially in this example. This was not someone who was talking profanity. From his point of view, he was the one being attacked, and he got booted by the only player in the table not encouraging him to start playing again. Doesn't that seem backward?
Being mature and polite should apply to all (even administrators). If someone is offensive, be mature and polite enough to warn them before they are disrespected and dismissed. Give someone a chance to refrain and calm down. Selectively booting people with no warning is weak. If the person refuses to cooperate, then use the boot-button.
And, I think it would be a good idea to keep statistics on who uses the boot-button, and post that data in thier profile. Some players here are way too sensitive, booting people for no reason at all. If they chose to be excessive with booting people, that's just as abusive as using the f-word. And there is a lot of that going on. This statistic posted in their profile would serve as fair warning to everyone that that player is super-sensitive.
Never the less, as seen here, ego is a huge factor. If I had tried to privately appeal to up2ng concerning his subjective reactionary behavour, he would have done just what we have seen here. He would have called me a liar and told me to grow up (yet another ego trip), totally dismissing anyone else's opinion but his own.
In that light, it is TOTALLY appropriate for abusive administrative interventions (such as this) to be examined in the light of the community, not concealed in the darkness of subjectivity. If someone thinks they have what it takes to be an administrator, then show it here for everyone to see how objective/subjective they actually are.
I agree that private conversations should not be examined here in this forum. However, this was not just a private conversation at a table. This was an administrator choosing to apply the letter of the law to one player, while letting others get by with far worse, to keep from tarnishing his own tourney. And with that abuse, a valuable player was offended enough to leave the community. This needs to be public, so that everyone knows that people are more important than one administrators ego.
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Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:53 PM
to change subjects for a second,..
i nominate pente_man as a lobby admin. he is level headed. i trust his judgment. he is respectful of people and patient. i highly doubt he'd get any complaints from the majority for any decisions he makes in such a position. he is very active in the lobby, thus he will be there most often to monitor.
who seconds my nomination? lets see some hands.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 11:08 PM
I'll second pente_man. He's smart, but probably too smart for that duty, lol. For the record, up2ng or many others could, as long as they don't think they are always right in their own eyes.
