Posts:
1,032
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Dec 16, 2001
From:
Powell, OH
Age:
37 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:07 PM
i'll admit to not having read EVERYTHING that has been posted in the last few days. but i feel i need to at least comment as some people are expecting me to say something and i don't have a lot of time at the moment.
to me this just further proves the need to have clear rules for what the community wants to allow for forum posting and also behavior in the game rooms themselves.
if we can agree profanity is fine, then no problem. if we don't want profanity, fine. whatever.
lets just agree on some rules and then when someone gets booted from a table for whatever reason, we can all point to the rules and say "yep, they broke the rules so they got booted or their posts were edited". that's why the rules need to be simple and unambiguous.
i trust up2ng (otherwise he wouldn't be an admin) and believe that he acts in good faith and tries to do his best with limited power and limited guidance on what an admin should do on this site. maybe he did the wrong thing here, i don't know, but it certainly doesn't seem like some grand abuse of power to boot someone for 5min.
i think it is a bad idea to post conversations from the game room in the forums unless everyone has agreed to it; there is an implied privacy to what is said in a game table.
having said that, i suggest following the rule to not say anything on the internet (email,facebook,chat rooms,etc.) that you wouldn't want your mother to read. works for me
-dweebo p.s. i deleted some stuff, perhaps too much since it might have removed some replies following the bad content, sorry about that, please feel free to repost
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:47 PM
Your sight, your rules. I do appreciate you letting us voice our opinions.
As far as booting for 5 min (or however long), that is as subjectively offensive as using the f-word. Profanity, sex-talk, threatening, etc, are never acceptable. Someone talking like that needs no warning, boot them. However, in this case, one of the best players was frustrated, and it was an extreme reaction to that frustration to be booted from that table, at that time. The administrator who did it was clearly not even listening to the man, he was only following the letter of the law. The same law that several of us saw him ignore when he was running his own tournament.
To some, being booted or booting another person is not that big of deal. To others it is. Just like seeing the f-word; some of us dont freak out about it. Especially in this example. This was not someone who was talking profanity. From his point of view, he was the one being attacked, and he got booted by the only player in the table not encouraging him to start playing again. Doesn't that seem backward?
Being mature and polite should apply to all (even administrators). If someone is offensive, be mature and polite enough to warn them before they are disrespected and dismissed. Give someone a chance to refrain and calm down. Selectively booting people with no warning is weak. If the person refuses to cooperate, then use the boot-button.
And, I think it would be a good idea to keep statistics on who uses the boot-button, and post that data in thier profile. Some players here are way too sensitive, booting people for no reason at all. If they chose to be excessive with booting people, that's just as abusive as using the f-word. And there is a lot of that going on. This statistic posted in their profile would serve as fair warning to everyone that that player is super-sensitive.
Never the less, as seen here, ego is a huge factor. If I had tried to privately appeal to up2ng concerning his subjective reactionary behavour, he would have done just what we have seen here. He would have called me a liar and told me to grow up (yet another ego trip), totally dismissing anyone else's opinion but his own.
In that light, it is TOTALLY appropriate for abusive administrative interventions (such as this) to be examined in the light of the community, not concealed in the darkness of subjectivity. If someone thinks they have what it takes to be an administrator, then show it here for everyone to see how objective/subjective they actually are.
I agree that private conversations should not be examined here in this forum. However, this was not just a private conversation at a table. This was an administrator choosing to apply the letter of the law to one player, while letting others get by with far worse, to keep from tarnishing his own tourney. And with that abuse, a valuable player was offended enough to leave the community. This needs to be public, so that everyone knows that people are more important than one administrators ego.
Posts:
2,220
Registered:
Mar 4, 2007
From:
San Francisco
Age:
45 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 10:53 PM
to change subjects for a second,..
i nominate pente_man as a lobby admin. he is level headed. i trust his judgment. he is respectful of people and patient. i highly doubt he'd get any complaints from the majority for any decisions he makes in such a position. he is very active in the lobby, thus he will be there most often to monitor.
who seconds my nomination? lets see some hands.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 11:08 PM
I'll second pente_man. He's smart, but probably too smart for that duty, lol. For the record, up2ng or many others could, as long as they don't think they are always right in their own eyes.
Posts:
751
Registered:
Mar 1, 2002
From:
My Own Lil World Mostly
Age:
43
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 26, 2010, 11:45 PM
Just some things that crossed my mind when I read this whole thread and watched everything transpire:
1. Zoey: Is pente_man even interested in the job? Dweebo solicited people to message him via this site if they were...so I would suggest having pente_man solicit Dweebo via private message for the job. Would not want to see someone become "one of them" without their own interest in doing so. I would vote for him being a community director! (p.s. There is no such "Lobby Admin"). The admins currently on this site were to run tournaments, aid with helping other players with functions on this site, and, unfortunately, to boot people who purposely offend others.
2. No "laws" have been defined. Guideline suggestions were given but no true decision has been made. Nothing has been posted nor has any one been informed of said "guidelines". Hard to enforce something that does not exist.
3. Guidelines do not replace basic human decency, respect, nor what most are taught about treating others.
4. Please do not make this site become a pain in Dweebo's side. I would really hate to see it become a thing of the past. (note: if he gets tired of it he can make it all go away)
5. Act as you expect others to act. That should cure what ails this site!
Challenge 1: Become an admin on this site. Ask Dweebo to grant you such privilege. See what you are made of.
Challenge 2: Get on with the guidelines discussion and ASK Dweebo to post them once it is resolved. Then enjoy living under those guidelines. This thread is about defining those guidelines, requesting people to participate as community director and/or admins, not about infractions, not about who did what to whom, it is about "Forum policies, community director"...it was kind of Dweebo to ask for our input. Sad, this is what it has become. I ask that we all get back to the business at hand and define the guidelines we all wish to function under. Then and only then will we be able to enforce them in a standard fashion.
Good Luck to any and all up to the challenges!
I hope everyone has a great weekend full of pente playin' fun! Peace and Light to You All!
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 27, 2010, 2:36 AM
Dweebo, I think the rules of an director should be clearly outlined for everyone to see, then the conduct of a director can be more understood, I was at that table the other night when the director booted said player for profanity or otherwise adult content, all the players present were known adult regulars at this site, I believe the director was aware that there were no under age players, if there had been I would have made this clear to anyone talking in adult language, and if they did not respond , I would boot offending player and or players, seeing that it was my table to police it as I saw fit !, I would not have booted anyone at that point !
Posts:
66
Registered:
Dec 13, 2008
From:
New York City
Age:
58
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 27, 2010, 5:40 AM
Up2ng has to be right. No reasonable argument can survive the support of Rooster, madrugada, madrugada2, Baddsixx9 (if I spelled it correctly), omgjustdie, Halffast, Erik, (or whatever his name is).
Posts:
205
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
Moscow,Russia
Age:
56 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 27, 2010, 6:09 AM
Why you need boot button at all on this site ? If you play short time games and you win , your opponent able just boot you before one move before victory. If your Internet connection not repear fast you just lost your game. If you feel discomfort to speaking someone - first rule - ignore him, don't speaking at all. second rule - boot yourself from the game.
Posts:
124
Registered:
Jun 8, 2008
From:
Stillwater, Oklahoma Banned: For abuse of mm_ai8
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 27, 2010, 7:31 AM
Wow, I need to apologize, sincerely. I have a real problem with being booted or seeing someone else booted. There have been a few times that I had to do it; and even though I did plead with the individuals to calm down or refrain, it still made me feel like schidt.
You could cuss at me all day long and I will laugh in your face. But boot me one time without any warning, and I'll probably remember it the rest of my life. And, since I feel that way, I see now that I have projected my sensitivity onto others.
I know booting someone is the only solution when dealing with someone who will not respond to reason. But just as much as hearing/reading the f-word is offensive to some, being disrespected by a no-warning boot brings about as much or more resentment in me.
I have launched into an attack against up2ng, and his authority, which I regret. An administrator is a thankless job. Whether I was right or wrong, I went about this the wrong way. I wish it didn't take this long for me to see how over the line I can be. And I wish I could say this will not happen again, but I do get pissed off once in a while. Never the less, I am humbled at my lack of restraint in this case.
So, moving forward, I would suggest that if you object to someone's language or behavior, please be respectful enough to warn them before they are booted. Like them or not, people are the most valuable asset we have here.
Posts:
2,220
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Mar 4, 2007
From:
San Francisco
Age:
45 Home page
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Feb 27, 2010, 10:04 AM
nosovs; >your opponent able just boot you before one move before victory.
i don't think you can be booted while your game is in progress, they would have to resign to end game to then boot you after.
and,..did you guys know? that Dweebo made us the ability to ignore a player's chat, and also a button to ignore a player's invites?
i figure if someone is offensive, they will get the point when they see that all players have set them to ignore chat. if all ignore chat with these buttons, no one will bother us for very long in the lobby. simple solution. admins are not actually needed to protect the lobby now like before. remaining lobby problems that can occur, stat padding, cheating. this can be easily fixed by sending dweebo a PM, it doen't happen often enough to burden him im thinking. also, if a player verbally attacks a known minor at the site, we can message Dweebo, he can check the chat records and delete the account. now i realize these are random examples, but point is that most of the players are aware that they can block players chat on there own, or can become educated on it if they ever find a chat problem and they ask around.
i strongly feel that when a admin is in the lobby, they should only push boot buttons when asked to do so after the person already received a first verbal warning,
yup, verbal warning..
and when booting, first explain what is happening and why. kinda like when a cop arrests me, they must tell me what im being arrested for. seems rather simple to me.
and before booting, make sure they deserve it, if its not OVERLY obvious, then ask some questions, investigate, beyond a reasonable doubt is needed for boots n' bans. this doesn't ask for perfection, it just asks for a check list involving patients and a little effort as a standard practice.
admins are more needed for the purpose of tourneys, forum moderation, assisting players with technical difficulties, supporting majorities, and minorities ideas and initiative to improve this site (with in reason). this includes popping in the lobby and hanging out once in a while at least and getting to know the regulars and new comers. being proactive and approachable. a admin should never complain about a volunteer position as admin in a public arena . it looks bad, and gives a negative feel to the community.(this is hypothetically in general, not directed at a individual person).
current main needs from admins, 7th heaven tourney, and being proactive to get players to participate in designing the forum guidelines/policies. once that's established, new duties of moderating the forum will begin. until then i think its a semi hands off approach, i would think..
as far as banning a account for over stepping a line in the forum, you should block them from the forum, perhaps lobby depending on the situation, and have dweebo review the case for final approval before deleting.
say you ban over a misunderstanding, and then you want to reinstate them,.. all their Private Messages and all of their games (possibly very valuable data) will not have a name attached to them for searching. that's always a tragedy to damage the data base's searching abilities by names, IMO.
ok i have more to say, but im goina stop rambling there for now, thanks for reading.
~Z
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Mar 1, 2010, 7:41 AM
I think this might be my first post here. Anyways...
Reading over all this stuff, I ask myself what would i do if it were my site? Would I put up with all this B.S?
I'm not a big time user here but I reckon some folks are abusing the privilege. I think Dweebo has had enough and some of you just aren't getting the message. If it were me I would have pulled the pin on the site for a week, and then fired it back up with a warning message "Behave or you lose it for good"
Don't get me wrong, I probably like all the folks I have met in here and don't want to get off-side with anyone. But I reckon we should drop the prima-donna routine and forget the rights to free speech etc. Stop berating the admins who have a tough job. If you don't like the behaviour of an admin, why not complain privately to dweebo if you're not happy with his deputies? Why beat up on them in a public forum - to me that's just bullying.
Some people need to take a chill-pill and stop to think about the thousands of hours of unpaid work Dweebo has put into this, and all the BS he has had to put up with. The guy is a total legend, and I cant see much gratitude being shown in either words or deeds.
Posts:
751
Registered:
Mar 1, 2002
From:
My Own Lil World Mostly
Age:
43
Re: Forum policies, community director, not dictator ...
Posted:
Mar 2, 2010, 12:44 AM
Some of the statements you made in your post, Zoey, are incorrect. I am going to address one of them:
When an account is "deleted" it is actually marked "deactivated" and does not get deleted from the database at all. The games are still there and the data is still intact. It is just a matter of reactivating if done in error.
Hopefully, the great fear people have deactivating accounts will be lessened with this explanation.
Keep in mind that Dweebo instated admins due to lack of his own personal time. He simply cannot be a part of everything on this site. He truly wants his designated admins and the "regular" community to work together and deal with things that arise.
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Forum policies, community director
Posted:
Mar 13, 2010, 8:30 PM
I just wanted to point out here that I have edited the original chat content posted in this thread to censor out the usernames involved in the chat. Obviously because of the following posts made to the thread since then it will not help in this case...
From now on, please do everything you can to avoid posting actual chat content to these forums. In the rare case that you feel that it is necessary, please carefully censor out all usernames, both the tags to the chat items, and any username or real name contained within the chat itself. If certain parts of the chat content make the identity of one or more participants of the chat extremely obvious, censor out the entire line with ****** marks or something similar.
Again, posting actual chat content to the forums should be extremely rare. In fact, you might want to send a PM to an admin with the content of the post you are about to make and wait for some feedback so that you can be extra sure about whether posting actual chat content is appropriate in that case.
The privacy of the content within chat rooms should be respected by all individuals (and admins) going forward, as Dweebo has recently mentioned that he always considered this to be an unwritten (implied) policy around here.
